Book 3, Chapter 5

A conversation held with Pericles the son of the great statesman may here be introduced. ¹ Socrates began:

A conversation with Pericles, the son of the great statesman, may be included here. ¹ Socrates began:

I am looking forward, I must tell you, Pericles, to a great improvement in our military affairs when you are minister of war. ² The prestige of Athens, I hope, will rise; we shall gain the mastery over our enemies.

Pericles, I must tell you, I look forward to a great improvement in our military affairs when you are minister of war. ² I hope Athens will gain prestige and we will gain mastery over our enemies.

Pericles replied: I devoutly wish your words might be fulfilled, but how this happy result is to be obtained, I am at a loss to discover.

Pericles replied: I sincerely hope your words come true. But I cannot see how to bring about this happy outcome.

Shall we (Socrates continued), shall we balance the arguments for and against, and consider to what extent the possibility does exist?

“Shall we,” Socrates continued, “weigh the arguments for and against, and consider how far it is possible?”

Pray let us do so (he answered).

Please, let us do so (he answered).

Soc. Well then, you know that in point of numbers the Athenians are not inferior to the Boeotians?

Soc. Well then, you know that the Athenians are at least as numerous as the Boeotians?

Per. Yes, I am aware of that.

Per. Yes, I know that.

Soc. And do you think the Boeotians could furnish a better pick of fine healthy men than the Athenians?

Soc. And do you think the Boeotians could offer a better selection of strong, healthy men than the Athenians?

Per. I think we should very well hold our own in that respect.

Per. I think we would do very well in that respect.

Soc. And which of the two would you take to be the more united people—the friendlier among themselves?

Soc. And which of the two peoples do you think is more united, more friendly toward one another?

Per. The Athenians, I should say, for so many sections of the Boeotians, resenting the selfish policy ³ of Thebes, are ill disposed to that power, but at Athens I see nothing of the sort.

Per. I would say the Athenians. Many groups among the Boeotians resent Thebes' selfish policy ³ and are hostile to Thebes. But I see nothing like that in Athens.

Soc. But perhaps you will say that there is no people more jealous of honour or haughtier in spirit. ⁴ And these feelings are no weak spurs to quicken even a dull spirit to hazard all for glory's sake and fatherland.

Soc. But perhaps you will say that no people are more concerned with honor or prouder in spirit. ⁴ These feelings are powerful enough to spur even a sluggish person to risk everything for glory and country.

Per. Nor is there much fault to find with Athenians in these respects.

Per. There is not much to criticize about the Athenians in these respects either.

Soc. And if we turn to consider the fair deeds of ancestry, ⁵ to no people besides ourselves belongs so rich a heritage of stimulating memories, whereby so many of us are stirred to pursue virtue with devotion and to show ourselves in our turn also men of valour like our sires.

Soc. And if we consider the noble deeds of our ancestors, ⁵ no other people have such a rich heritage of inspiring memories. These memories stir so many of us to pursue virtue with devotion and to prove ourselves brave, like our ancestors.

Per. All that you say, Socrates, is most true, but do you observe that ever since the disaster of the thousand under Tolmides at Lebadeia, coupled with that under Hippocrates at Delium, ⁶ the prestige of Athens by comparison with the Boeotians has been lowered, whilst the spirit of Thebes as against Athens had been correspondingly exalted, so that those Boeotians who in old days did not venture to give battle to the Athenians even in their own territory unless they had the Lacedaemonians and the rest of the Peloponnesians to help them, do nowadays threaten to make an incursion into Attica single-handed; and the Athenians, who formerly, if they had to deal with the Boeotians ⁷ only, made havoc of their territory, are now afraid the Boeotians may some day harry Attica.

Per. Everything you say is true, Socrates, but have you noticed what has happened since the disasters at Lebadeia and Delium? At Lebadeia, Tolmides lost a thousand men, and at Delium, Hippocrates suffered a defeat. ⁶ Athens has lost prestige compared with the Boeotians, while Thebes has grown correspondingly more confident against Athens. As a result, the Boeotians now threaten to invade Attica on their own. In the past, they did not dare fight the Athenians, even in their own territory, without help from the Lacedaemonians and the rest of the Peloponnesians. The Athenians, meanwhile, used to ravage Boeotian territory if they had only the Boeotians ⁷ to deal with. Now they fear the Boeotians may one day ravage Attica.

To which Socrates: Yes, I perceive that this is so, but it seems to me that the state was never more tractably disposed, never so ripe for a really good leader, as to-day. For if boldness be the parent of carelessness, laxity, and insubordination, it is the part of fear to make people more disposed to application, obedience, and good order. A proof of which you may discover in the behaviour of people on ship-board. It is in seasons of calm weather when there is nothing to fear that disorder may be said to reign, but as soon as there is apprehension of a storm, or an enemy in sight, the scene changes; not only is each word of command obeyed, but there is a hush of silent expectation; the mariners wait to catch the next signal like an orchestra with eyes upon the leader.

Socrates replied: Yes, I see that this is so. But I think the state has never been more willing to follow a truly good leader than it is today. For if boldness leads to carelessness, laxity, and disobedience, fear makes people more inclined to work hard, obey, and keep order. You can see proof of this in how people behave aboard a ship. In calm weather, when there is nothing to fear, disorder may be said to reign. But as soon as a storm threatens or an enemy comes into sight, the scene changes. Every command is obeyed, and everyone waits in silence. The sailors watch for the next signal, like an orchestra with its eyes on the conductor.

Per. But indeed, given that now is the opportunity to take obedience at the flood, it is high time also to explain by what means we are to rekindle in the hearts of our countrymen ⁸ the old fires—the passionate longing for antique valour, for the glory and the wellbeing of the days of old.

Per. But now that we have the chance to take advantage of their willingness to obey, it is also time to explain how to rekindle the old fires in our countrymen’s hearts ⁸, their passionate longing for the courage, glory, and wellbeing of the past.

Well (proceeded Socrates), supposing we wished them to lay claim to certain material wealth now held by others, we could not better stimulate them to lay hands on the objects coveted than by showing them that these were ancestral possessions ⁹ to which they had a natural right. But since our object is that they should set their hearts on virtuous pre-eminence, we must prove to them that such headship combined with virtue is an old time-honoured heritage which pertains to them beyond all others, and that if they strive earnestly after it they will soon out-top the world.

“Well,” Socrates continued, “suppose we wanted them to claim wealth now held by others. The best way to encourage them to seize it would be to show that it was their ancestral property ⁹, theirs by natural right. But we want them to set their hearts on excellence in virtue. So we must show them that leadership joined with virtue is a long-honored heritage that belongs to them more than anyone else. We must also show them that if they pursue it earnestly, they will soon surpass the world.”

Por. How are we to inculcate this lesson?

Por. How can we teach this lesson?

Soc. I think by reminding them of a fact already registered in their minds, ¹⁰ that the oldest of our ancestors whose names are known to us were also the bravest of heroes.

Soc. I think by reminding them of a fact they already know, ¹⁰ that the earliest of our ancestors whose names we know were also the bravest heroes.

Per. I suppose you refer to that judgment of the gods which, for their virtue's sake, Cecrops and his followers were called on to decide? ¹¹

Per. I suppose you mean the judgment between the gods that Cecrops and his followers were asked to make because of their virtue? ¹¹

Soc. Yes, I refer to that and to the birth and rearing of Erectheus, ¹² and also to the war ¹³ which in his days was waged to stay the tide of invasion from the whole adjoining continent; and that other war in the days of the Heraclidae ¹⁴ against the men of Peloponnese; and that series of battles fought in the days of Theseus ¹⁵—in all which the virtuous pre-eminence of our ancestry above the men of their own times was made manifest. Or, if you please, we may come down to things of a later date, which their descendants and the heroes of days not so long anterior to our own wrought in the struggle with the lords of Asia, ¹⁶ nay of Europe also, as far as Macedonia: a people possessing a power and means of attack far exceeding any who had gone before—who, moreover, had accomplished the doughtiest deeds. These things the men of Athens wrought partly single-handed, ¹⁷ and partly as sharers with the Peloponnesians in laurels won by land and sea. Heroes were these men also, far outshining, as tradition tells us, the peoples of their time.

Soc. Yes, I mean that, and also the birth and upbringing of Erectheus, ¹² and the war ¹³ fought in his day to stop the invasion from the whole neighboring continent. I also mean the war fought in the days of the Heraclidae ¹⁴ against the men of Peloponnese, and the series of battles fought in the days of Theseus. ¹⁵ In all these conflicts, our ancestors clearly surpassed the other men of their time in virtue. Or, if you prefer, we can turn to more recent events. In those days, their descendants, heroes who lived not so long before us, fought the rulers of Asia, ¹⁶ and even of Europe as far as Macedonia. These rulers had far greater power and resources for attack than any who had come before them. They had also accomplished the most impressive deeds. The men of Athens accomplished these things partly on their own, ¹⁷ and partly by sharing victories on land and sea with the Peloponnesians. These men too were heroes who, tradition tells us, far outshone the other peoples of their time.

Per. Yes, so runs the story of their heroism.

Per. Yes, that is the story of their heroism.

Soc. Therefore it is that, amidst the many changes of inhabitants, and the migrations which have, wave after wave, swept over Hellas, these maintained themselves in their own land, unmoved; so that it was a common thing for others to turn to them as to a court of appeal on points of right, or to flee to Athens as a harbour of refuge from the hand of the oppressor. ¹⁸

Soc. That is why, despite the many changes of inhabitants and waves of migration across Hellas, these people remained in their own land. As a result, others often turned to them to settle disputes over what was right. Others fled to Athens as a refuge from their oppressors. ¹⁸

Then Pericles: And the wonder to me, Socrates, is how our city ever came to decline.

Then Pericles said: And I wonder, Socrates, how our city ever declined.

Soc. I think we are victims of our own success. Like some athlete, ¹⁹ whose facile preponderance in the arena has betrayed him into laxity until he eventually succumbs to punier antagonists, so we Athenians, in the plenitude of our superiority, have neglected ourselves and are become degenerate.

Soc. I think we are victims of our own success. Consider an athlete, ¹⁹ who wins so easily in the arena that he becomes careless and eventually loses to weaker opponents. In the same way, we Athenians have neglected ourselves at the height of our superiority and have become weak.

Per. What then ought we to do now to recover our former virtue?

Per. What should we do now to regain our former virtue?

Soc. There need be no mystery about that, I think. We can rediscover the institutions of our forefathers—applying them to the regulation of our lives with something of their precision, and not improbably with like success; or we can imitate those who stand at the front of affairs to-day, ²⁰ adapting to ourselves their rule of life, in which case, if we live up to the standard of our models, we may hope at least to rival their excellence, or, by a more conscientious adherence to what they aim at, rise superior.

Soc. I don't think there need be any mystery about that. We can rediscover the practices of our ancestors and follow them in our lives with something like their precision. We might well achieve similar success. Or we can imitate those who lead affairs today, ²⁰ adapting their way of life to our own. If we live up to their standard, we can hope at least to match their excellence. Or, by pursuing their goals more conscientiously, we may surpass them.

You would seem to suggest (he answered) that the spirit of beautiful and brave manhood has taken wings and left our city; ²¹ as, for instance, when will Athenians, like the Lacedaemonians, reverence old age—the Athenian, who takes his own father as a starting-point for the contempt he pours upon grey hairs? When will he pay as strict an attention to the body, who is not content with neglecting a good habit, ²² but laughs to scorn those who are careful in this matter? When shall we Athenians so obey our magistrates—we who take a pride, as it were, in despising authority? When, once more, shall we be united as a people—we who, instead of combining to promote common interests, delight in blackening each other's characters, ²³ envying one another more than we envy all the world besides; and—which is our worst failing—who, in private and public intercourse alike, are torn by dissension and are caught in a maze of litigation, and prefer to make capital out of our neighbour's difficulties rather than to render natural assistance? To make our conduct consistent, indeed, we treat our national interests no better than if they were the concerns of some foreign state; we make them bones of contention to wrangle over, and rejoice in nothing so much as in possessing means and ability to indulge these tastes. From this hotbed is engendered in the state a spirit of blind folly ²⁴ and cowardice, and in the hearts of the citizens spreads a tangle of hatred and mutual hostility which, as I often shudder to think, will some day cause some disaster to befall the state greater than it can bear. ²⁵

“You seem to suggest,” he answered, “that the spirit of noble and courageous manhood has flown from our city. ²¹ For instance, when will Athenians respect old age as the Lacedaemonians do? An Athenian begins by showing contempt for gray hair in the person of his own father. When will he take as much care of his body? He not only neglects physical fitness, ²² but also mocks those who take care of themselves. When will we Athenians obey our officials as strictly? We take pride, it seems, in despising authority. “When will we be united as a people? Instead of joining together to advance our common interests, we enjoy attacking one another’s reputations. ²³ We envy one another more than we envy anyone else in the world. Worst of all, conflict divides us in both private and public life. We are caught up in endless lawsuits. We prefer to profit from our neighbors’ troubles rather than give them the help we naturally owe them. “Indeed, we are consistent in treating our national interests no better than those of a foreign state. We make them subjects for argument, and nothing pleases us more than having the means and ability to indulge our taste for quarrels. This breeds a spirit of blind folly ²⁴ and cowardice in the state. Hatred and mutual hostility spread through the hearts of the citizens. I often shudder to think that, someday, these feelings will bring a disaster upon the state greater than it can bear. ²⁵”

Do not (replied Socrates), do not, I pray you, permit yourself to believe that Athenians are smitten with so incurable a depravity. Do you not observe their discipline in all naval matters? Look at their prompt and orderly obedience to the superintendents at the gymnastic contests, ²⁶ their quite unrivalled subservience to their teachers in the training of our choruses.

“Please do not believe,” Socrates replied, “that Athenians are so corrupt that they cannot be cured. Don’t you see how disciplined they are in all naval matters? Look at how promptly and obediently they follow the officials at athletic contests. ²⁶ And no one obeys their teachers better when training our choruses.”

Yes (he answered), there's the wonder of it; to think that all those good people should so obey their leaders, but that our hoplites and our cavalry, who may be supposed to rank before the rest of the citizens in excellence of manhood, ²⁷ should be so entirely unamenable to discipline.

Yes (he answered), that is what is so remarkable. All those good people obey their leaders. But our hoplites and cavalry may be considered superior to the other citizens in manly excellence, ²⁷ yet they are completely unwilling to accept discipline.

Then Socrates: Well, but the council which sits on Areopagos is composed of citizens of approved ²⁸ character, is it not?

Then Socrates said: Well, but the council that sits on Areopagos is made up of citizens of proven ²⁸ character, isn't it?

Certainly (he answered).

“Certainly,” he answered.

Soc. Then can you name any similar body, judicial or executive, trying cases or transacting other business with greater honour, stricter legality, higher dignity, or more impartial justice?

Soc. Then can you name a similar judicial or executive body that handles cases or other business with greater honor, stricter adherence to the law, greater dignity, or more impartial justice?

No, I have no fault to find on that score (he answered).

No, I have no complaints about that, he replied.

Soc. Then we ought not to despair as though all sense of orderliness and good discipline had died out of our countrymen.

Soc. So we should not despair as if our countrymen had lost all sense of order and discipline.

Still (he answered), if it is not to harp upon one string, I maintain that in military service, where, if anywhere, sobreity and temperance, orderliness and good discipline are needed, none of these essentials receives any attention.

“Still,” he answered, “if I am not repeating myself, I maintain that none of these essentials receives any attention in military service. Yet military service is where sobriety, temperance, orderliness, and good discipline are needed, if anywhere.”

May it not perhaps be (asked Socrates) that in this department they are officered by those who have the least knowledge? ²⁹ Do you not notice, to take the case of harp-players, choric performers, dancers, and the like, that no one would ever dream of leading if he lacked the requisite knowledge? and the same holds of wrestlers or pancratiasts.

“Could it be,” Socrates asked, “that in this field they are led by those who know the least? ²⁹ Consider harp players, chorus members, dancers, and the like. Don’t you notice that no one would dream of leading without the necessary knowledge? The same is true of wrestlers and pancratiasts.”

Moreover, while in these cases any one in command can tell you where he got the elementary knowledge of what he presides over, most generals are amateurs and improvisers. ³⁰ I do not at all suppose that you are one of that sort. I believe you could give as clear an account of your schooling in strategy as you could in the matter of wrestling. No doubt you have got at first hand many of your father's "rules for generalship," which you carefully preserve, besides having collected many others from every quarter whence it was possible to pick up any knowledge which would be of use to a future general. Again, I feel sure you are deeply concerned to escape even unconscious ignorance of anything which will be serviceable to you in so high an office; and if you detect in yourself any ignorance, you turn to those who have knowledge in these matters (sparing neither gifts nor gratitude) to supplement your ignorance by their knowledge and to secure their help.

Moreover, in these cases, anyone in command can tell you where they learned the basics of their work. But most generals are amateurs who improvise. ³⁰ I do not suppose for a moment that you are one of them. I believe you could explain your training in strategy as clearly as your training in wrestling. No doubt you learned many of your father's "rules for generalship" directly from him and have carefully preserved them. You have also collected many others from every possible source of knowledge useful to a future general. I am sure you are deeply concerned not to be unaware of anything useful in such a high office. If you discover any gap in your knowledge, you turn to those who know about these matters. You spare neither gifts nor gratitude to fill the gap with their knowledge and secure their help.

To which Pericles: I am not so blind, Socrates, as to imagine you say these words under the idea that I am truly so careful in these matters; but rather your object is to teach me that the would-be general must make such things his care. I admit in any case all you say.

Pericles replied: I am not so blind, Socrates, as to think you believe I am truly so careful about these matters. Rather, you mean to teach me that anyone who wants to be a general must pay attention to them. In any case, I agree with everything you say.

Socrates proceeded: Has it ever caught your observation, Pericles, that a high mountain barrier stretches like a bulwark in front of our country down towards Boeotia—cleft, moreover, by narrow and precipitous passes, the only avenues into the heart of Attica, which lies engirdled by a ring of natural fortresses? ³¹

Socrates continued: Have you noticed, Pericles, that a high mountain barrier stretches like a defensive wall in front of our country toward Boeotia? Narrow, steep passes cut through the barrier. They are the only routes into the heart of Attica, which is surrounded by a ring of natural fortresses. ³¹

Per. Certainly I have.

Per. Yes, I certainly have.

Soc. Well, and have you ever heard tell of the Mysians and Pisidians living within the territory of the great king, ³² who, inside their mountain fortresses, lightly armed, are able to rush down and inflict much injury on the king's territory by their raids, while preserving their own freedom?

Soc. Well, have you ever heard of the Mysians and Pisidians who live within the territory of the great king? ³² From their mountain fortresses, these lightly armed people can rush down and raid the king’s territory, doing great damage while preserving their own freedom.

Per. Yes, the circumstance is not new to me.

Per. Yes, I already know about that.

And do you not think (added Socrates) that a corps of young able-bodied Athenians, accoutred with lighter arms, ³³ and holding our natural mountain rampart in possession, would prove at once a thorn in the enemy's side offensively, whilst defensively they would form a splendid bulwark to protect the country?

Socrates added, “And don’t you think a force of young, able-bodied Athenians, equipped with lighter weapons, ³³ could hold our natural mountain barrier? Wouldn’t they be a thorn in the enemy’s side when attacking and a splendid defense for the country?”

To which Pericles: I think, Socrates, these would be all useful measures, decidedly.

Pericles replied: I think all these measures would certainly be useful, Socrates.

If, then (replied Socrates), these suggestions meet your approbation, try, O best of men, to realise them—if you can carry out a portion of them, it will be an honour to yourself and a blessing to the state; while, if you fail in any point, there will be no damage done to the city nor discredit to yourself.

“If you approve of these suggestions, then, my good man, try to put them into practice,” Socrates replied. “If you can carry out some of them, you will earn honor and benefit the state. But if you fail in any respect, the city will suffer no harm, and you will face no disgrace.”