Book 3, Chapter 6

Glaucon, ¹ the son of Ariston, had conceived such an ardour to gain the headship of the state that nothing could hinder him but he must deliver a course of public speeches, ² though he had not yet reached the age of twenty. His friends and relatives tried in vain to stop him making himself ridiculous and being dragged down from the bema. ³ Socrates, who took a kindly interest in the youth for the sake of Charmides ⁴ the son of Glaucon, and of Plato, alone succeeded in restraining him. It happened thus. He fell in with him, and first of all, to get him to listen, detained him by some such remarks as the following: ⁵

Glaucon, ¹ the son of Ariston, was determined to become head of the state. Nothing could stop him from giving a series of public speeches, ² though he was not yet twenty. His friends and relatives tried in vain to stop him from making a fool of himself and being dragged down from the bema, the public speaking platform. ³ Socrates took a kind interest in the young man for the sake of Charmides ⁴ the son of Glaucon, and of Plato. He alone succeeded in holding Glaucon back. This is how it happened. Socrates met Glaucon and, to get him to listen, first kept him there with remarks like these: ⁵

Ah, Glaucon (he exclaimed), so you have determined to become prime minister? ⁶

Ah, Glaucon, he exclaimed, so you've decided to become prime minister? ⁶

Glauc. Yes, Socrates, I have.

Glauc. Yes, Socrates, I have.

Soc. And what a noble aim! if aught human ever deserved to be called noble; since if you succeed in your design, it follows, as the night the day, you will be able not only to gratify your every wish, but you will be in a position to benefit your friends, you will raise up your father's house, you will exalt your fatherland, you will become a name thrice famous in the city first, and next in Hellas, and lastly even among barbarians perhaps, like Themistocles; but be it here or be it there, wherever you be, you will be the observed of all beholders. ⁷

Soc. And what a noble aim, if anything human ever deserved to be called noble! If you succeed, you will be able to satisfy your every wish, as surely as night follows day. You will also be able to help your friends, restore your father's house, and bring glory to your fatherland. You will become famous, first in the city, then in Hellas, and perhaps even among barbarians, like Themistocles. But wherever you are, everyone will be watching you. ⁷

The heart of Glaucon swelled with pride as he drank in the words, and gladly he stayed to listen.

Glaucon felt a swell of pride as he listened to the words, and he gladly stayed to hear more.

Presently Socrates proceeded: Then this is clear, Glaucon, is it not? that you must needs benefit the city, since you desire to reap her honours?

Then Socrates continued: So, Glaucon, it is clear that you must benefit the city if you want to receive its honors, isn't it?

Glauc. Undoubtedly.

Glauc. Certainly.

Then, by all that is sacred (Socrates continued), do not keep us in the dark, but tell us in what way do you propose first to benefit the state? what is your starting-point? ⁸ When Glaucon remained with sealed lips, as if he were now for the first time debating what this starting-point should be, Socrates continued: I presume, if you wished to improve a friend's estate, you would endeavour to do so by adding to its wealth, would you not? So here, maybe, you will try to add to the wealth of the state?

Then, Socrates continued, by all that is sacred, do not leave us in the dark. Tell us how you plan to benefit the state first. Where will you start? ⁸ Glaucon stayed silent, as if he were only now considering where to start. Socrates continued: I suppose that if you wanted to improve a friend's estate, you would try to make it wealthier, wouldn't you? So perhaps you will try to make the state wealthier?

Most decidedly (he answered).

Definitely (he answered).

Soc. And we may take it the state will grow wealthier in proportion as her revenues increase?

Soc. And we can assume the state will grow wealthier in proportion to the increase in its revenues?

Glauc. That seems probable, at any rate.

Glauc. That seems likely, at least.

Soc. Then would you kindly tell us from what sources the revenues of the state are at present derived, and what is their present magnitude? No doubt you have gone carefully into the question, so that if any of these are failing you may make up the deficit, or if neglected for any reason, make some new provision. ⁹

Soc. Then would you kindly tell us where the state’s revenues currently come from and how much they amount to? No doubt you have studied the question carefully. That way, if any revenue sources are failing, you can make up the shortfall. Or, if any have been neglected for some reason, you can make new arrangements. ⁹

Glauc. Nay, to speak the truth, these are matters I have not thoroughly gone into.

Glauc. No, to tell the truth, I haven't looked into these matters thoroughly.

Never mind (he said) if you have omitted the point; but you might oblige us by running through the items or heads of expenditure. Obviously you propose to remove all those which are superfluous?

Never mind if you left out that point, he said. But could you please go through the expenses for us? Obviously, you plan to eliminate all the unnecessary ones?

Glauc. Well, no. Upon my word I have not had time to look into that side of the matter either as yet.

Glauc. Well, no. Honestly, I haven't had time to look into that side of the matter yet either.

Soc. Then we will postpone for the present the problem of making the state wealthier; obviously without knowing the outgoings and the incomings it would be impossible to deal with the matter seriously.

Soc. Then we will put off the question of how to make the state wealthier for now. Obviously, we cannot address it seriously without knowing the state's income and expenses.

But, Socrates (Glaucon remarked), it is possible to enrich the state out of the pockets of her enemies!

But, Socrates, Glaucon remarked, the state can grow rich at its enemies' expense!

Yes, to be sure, considerably (answered Socrates), in the event of getting the better of them; but in the event of being worsted, it is also possible to lose what we have got.

Yes, certainly, considerably, Socrates replied, if we defeat them. But if we are defeated, we may also lose what we have.

A true observation (he replied).

That's true (he replied).

And therefore (proceeded Socrates), before he makes up his mind with what enemy to go to war, a statesman should know the relative powers of his own city and the adversary's, so that, in case the superiority be on his own side, he may throw the weight of his advice into the scale of undertaking war; but if the opposite he may plead in favour of exercising caution.

And so, Socrates continued, a statesman should compare his city's strength with its enemy's before deciding which enemy to fight. If his city is stronger, he can advise going to war. But if the enemy is stronger, he can advise caution.

You are right (he answered).

“You’re right,” he replied.

Soc. Then would you for our benefit enumerate the land and naval forces first of Athens and then of our opponents?

Soc. Then could you list the land and naval forces for us, first those of Athens and then those of our opponents?

Glauc. Pardon me. I could not tell you them off-hand at a moment's notice.

Glauc. Sorry. I couldn't tell you what they are right off the top of my head.

Or (added Socrates), if you have got the figures on paper, you might produce them. I cannot tell how anxious I am to hear your statement.

Or, Socrates added, if you have the figures written down, you could show them to me. I can't tell you how eager I am to hear your account.

Glauc. No, I assure you, I have not got them even on paper yet.

Glauc. No, I assure you, I haven't even written them down yet.

Soc. Well then, we will defer tending advice on the topic of peace or war, in a maiden speech at any rate. ¹⁰ I can understand that, owing to the magnitude of the questions, in these early days of your ministry you have not yet fully examined them. But come, I am sure that you have studied the defences of the country, at all events, and you know exactly how many forts and outposts are serviceable ¹¹ and how many are not; you can tell us which garrisons are strong enough and which defective; and you are prepared to throw in the weight of your advice in favour of increasing the serviceable outposts and sweeping away those that are superfluous?

Soc. Well then, we will put off giving advice on peace or war, at least in your first speech. ¹⁰ I can understand that these questions are so important that you have not yet fully examined them. After all, you are still new to public office. But surely you have studied the country’s defenses. You know exactly how many forts and outposts are useful ¹¹ and how many are not. You can tell us which garrisons are strong enough and which are too weak. And you are ready to advise increasing the number of useful outposts and getting rid of those that are unnecessary?

Glauc. Yes, sweep them all away, that's my advice; for any good that is likely to come of them! Defences indeed! so maintained that the property of the rural districts is simply pilfered.

Glauc. Yes, get rid of them all, I say. What good are they likely to do? Defenses indeed! They are maintained so poorly that property in the countryside is simply stolen.

But suppose you sweep away the outposts (he asked), may not something worse, think you, be the consequence? will not sheer plundering be free to any ruffian who likes?... But may I ask is this judgment the result of personal inspection? have you gone yourself and examined the defences? or how do you know that they are all maintained as you say?

But suppose you remove the outposts, he asked. Might something worse happen? Wouldn't any thug who wanted to be free to plunder?... But may I ask, is your judgment based on personal inspection? Have you gone and examined the defenses yourself? Or how do you know that all the defenses are maintained as you say?

Glauc. I conjecture that it is so.

Glauc. I guess so.

Soc. Well then, until we have got beyond the region of conjecture shall we defer giving advice on the matter? (It will be time enough when we know the facts.)

Soc. Well then, shall we wait to give advice on the matter until we are no longer guessing? (There will be time enough once we know the facts.)

Possibly it would be better to wait till then (replied Glaucon).

Perhaps it would be better to wait until then, Glaucon replied.

Soc. Then there are the mines, ¹² but, of course, I am aware that you have not visited them in person, so as to be able to say why they are less productive than formerly.

Soc. Then there are the mines, ¹² but of course I know you haven't visited them yourself. So you can't say why they produce less than they used to.

Well, no; I have never been there myself (he answered).

Well, no, I’ve never been there myself, he answered.

Soc. No, Heaven help us! an unhealthy district by all accounts; so that, when the moment for advice on that topic arrives, you will have an excuse ready to hand.

Soc. No, heaven help us! By all accounts, it is an unhealthy district. So when the time comes to give advice about it, you will have an excuse ready.

I see you are making fun of me (Glaucon answered).

I see you are making fun of me, Glaucon replied.

Soc. Well, but here is a point, I am sure, which you have not neglected. No, you will have thoroughly gone into it, and you can tell us. For how long a time could the corn supplies from the country districts support the city? how much is requisite for a single year, so that the city may not run short of this prime necessary, before you are well aware; but on the contrary you with your full knowledge will be in a position to give advice on so vital a question, to the aid or may be the salvation of your country?

Soc. Well, here is a question I’m sure you have not neglected. You must have looked into it thoroughly, so you can tell us. How long could the grain from the surrounding countryside support the city? How much does the city need for a single year? Surely you know this, so that the city will not run short of this vital necessity before you realize it. On the contrary, your full knowledge will allow you to advise the city on this vital question, helping or perhaps saving your country.

It is a colossal business this (Glaucon answered), if I am to be obliged to give attention to all these details.

This is a huge task, Glaucon replied, if I have to pay attention to all these details.

Soc. On the other hand, a man could not even manage his own house or his estate well, without, in the first place, knowing what he requires, and, in the second place, taking pains, item by item, to supply his wants. But since this city consists of more than ten thousand houses, and it is not easy to pay minute attention to so many all at once, how is it you did not practise yourself by trying to augment the resources of one at any rate of these—I mean your own uncle's? The service would not be thrown away. Then if your strength suffices in the single case you might take in hand a larger number; but if you fail to relieve one, how could you possibly hope to succeed with many? How absurd for a man, if he cannot carry half a hundredweight, to attempt to carry a whole! ¹³

Soc. On the other hand, a man cannot even manage his own household or estate well without first knowing what he needs. Then he must take care to provide each thing he needs. But this city has more than ten thousand households. It is not easy to attend closely to so many at once. So why did you not practice by trying to increase the resources of at least one household, your own uncle’s? Your help would not be wasted. Then, if you can manage that one household, you might take on more. But if you cannot help one household, how could you hope to succeed with many? How absurd for a man to try to carry a hundredweight if he cannot carry half of one! ¹³

Glauc. Nay, for my part, I am willing enough to assist my uncle's house, if my uncle would only be persuaded to listen to my advice.

Glauc. No, I'm quite willing to help my uncle's household, if only my uncle would listen to my advice.

Soc. Then, when you cannot persuade your uncle, do you imagine you will be able to make the whole Athenian people, uncle and all, obey you? Be careful, Glaucon (he added), lest in your thirst for glory and high repute you come to the opposite. Do you not see how dangerous it is for a man to speak or act beyond the range ¹⁴ of his knowledge? To take the cases known to you of people whose conversation or conduct clearly transcends these limits: should you say they gain more praise or more blame on that account? Are they admired the rather or despised? Or, again, consider those who do know what they say and what they do; and you will find, I venture to say, that in every sort of undertaking those who enjoy repute and admiration belong to the class of those endowed with the highest knowledge; whilst conversely the people of sinister reputation, the mean and the contemptible, emanate from some depth of ignorance and dulness. If therefore what you thirst for is repute and admiration as a statesman, try to make sure of one accomplishment: in other words, the knowledge as far as in you lies of what you wish to do. ¹⁵ If, indeed, with this to distinguish you from the rest of the world you venture to concern yourself with state affairs, it would not surprise me but that you might reach the goal of your ambition easily.

Soc. Then, if you cannot persuade your uncle, do you think you can make all the Athenian people, including your uncle, obey you? Be careful, Glaucon, he added, that your thirst for glory and a fine reputation does not bring you the opposite. Don’t you see how dangerous it is to speak or act beyond the limits ¹⁴ of your knowledge? Consider the people you know whose words or actions clearly go beyond those limits. Would you say they earn more praise or more blame for it? Are they admired or despised for it? Now consider those who do know what they say and do. I think you will find that, in every kind of undertaking, those with the most knowledge are the ones who enjoy a good reputation and admiration. By contrast, people with bad reputations, the lowly and the contemptible, come from the depths of ignorance and dullness. So if you long for a good reputation and admiration as a statesman, try to master one thing. Learn as much as you can about what you want to do. ¹⁵ If that knowledge sets you apart from everyone else, and you venture into state affairs, it would not surprise me if you reached your goal easily.